Review
Basic Truths:
They are what they are. Nothing too fancy; just stat buffs. I think Khuldor had something about turning them into Miasma with Ta Hiera (not sure if it would work like that but ok) and Unmei maybe had something with them too. Turning them into an Envoy or summoning would be interesting. Maybe something that really exemplifies the attribute but not very much in the others like a really big blast that only works once and is slow or a fast messenger that can't do much else.
Basic Fighting Techniques:
Other than picking one for it's use to unlock an Advanced technique, I don't see much use in these. Just pick something else.
Stat+:
Why are these even a thing? They're only used for min-maxing, and overlap with the truths. Just make the ++ ones cost more instead of needing them.
Amp Ess:
Neat. Useful for anyone that uses a truth.
Rage:
A flavorful min-maxing technique. Otherwise, meh.
Guts:
Neat. Useful.
HP Regen:
A very useful power. One of the few basic powers that stands up on it's own.
Res Up:
See HP Regen.
Metal/Forge:
Why is Forge even a thing? It's metal but worse. Metal's cool though. I mean I guess Forge has Industria... but how many swords do you need?
Bond Weapon:
Yeah ok. May as well be there. If someone could take your weapon you were probably losing anyway but it could be used for keyblade shenanigans (look up Sora vs Roxas, watch the end cutscene) Otherwise, just flavorful.
B-Cast:
There's probably a use for this somewhere, like a necromancer build or some other minionmancer. Pairs well with both HP Regens.
MDMG-:
Powercrept by advanced anti-magic tech (not technology, techniques).
Platoon:
Ok. Neat I guess.
Foresight:
The "I outskill you" option. Good.
Stock:
The "I outlast you" option. Good. Weirdly cheap.
Basic Elements:
Some of these are better than advanced elements tbh. Lightning is the strongest firepower wise, and Earth and Ice honestly have utility that isn't available to other elements. Earth seems better than Ice. Fire has it's uses. Air is there. Water gets powercrept.
Basic Spells:
I wouldn't take all of them, just three are needed honestly. Bullet or Bomb, Shield, and Wall take care of most mage purposes. Mine and Step are situational.
Imbue:
Make your own wand! Ok.
Enchant:
Forge but better. Ok.
Basic Magic Knight Spells:
Sure if you wanna be a Wizard Fighter. I think it would be better to specialize in just one but whatever floats your boat.
Fast Spell:
Powercrept.
Unleash:
Could backfire, hard. Otherwise fine.
MP Regen:
Basically required for most mage builds. No reason not to have it.
Alchemy:
Pretty good honestly. You could substitute it for MP Regen and say you make mana potions, and you also have the "I'm a doctor!" card to play if someone get's injured. Brew seems better thanks to plot powers and Industria, though. I don't think Alchemy even has any Advanced trees. Honestly, it might just be worse than Brew. At least you can say you're more consistent.
Craft:
Powercreeps Forge, hard.
Tools+:
Good. No reason not to take it if you're a mage/potioneer. The only way Caniara can be relevent.
Basic Golem:
No one's taking this on it's own. You take it for the golem tree. I'll say more later.
Spellmod+:
Generic min-maxing ability. Fine.
P-Cast:
Situational. Good for an Envoy build.
Basic Envoy:
See golem. If you were to take it on it's own, you would be better off taking golem instead.
Basic Status:
All powercrept. Paralysis is situational. Charm is good if you need to counteract terror, I guess? Venom is straight up powercrept.
Basic Status techniques:
Same story as fighting.
Song and Dance:
Fine for minionmancing.
Sonet:
Shout outs to Unmei. Better off just packing Mine or Rune for traps though.
Backstab:
There are better ways to oneshot someone.
Stealth:
Good and cheap. Great for minionmancers as it counteracts their biggest weakness; someone finding them after sneaking past their defenses.
Disguise:
Most people won't care about nuking the city you're in. Better choose stealth if you want to hide. Good for faceless so you can backstab someone if they have teammates.
Steal:
Lmao. Only good if you want be the guy the minionmancer forgot to prepare for and stab them.
Unlock:
Yeah I'm sure the one guy who picked Rune is real upset.
Contact Plane:
Just flavor so you can say how you grabbed your minions. If you wanna play a summoner without taking it, no one will stop you.
Travel:
See plane. I guess a minionmancer could use it to hide even better, especially if they have a niche element.
Parlay:
Needed for one of the better minionmancer trees.
Basic Summon:
Same deal as Envoy and Golem.
Familiar:
Ok if you want more flavor, about the same for summoning.
Gather:
Min-max for brewing.
Brew:
Alchemy but better honestly. Potion Pete had the right idea with hating it.
Gunsmith:
I'll be honest the gunner builds seem like they're just worse than normal magecraft.
Will:
It's literally just guts.
Flee:
See minionmancers and stealth.
Projectiles:
Phys Ranged is not that strong a build. Go magic or close up.
Exotic:
Flavor only.
Provoke:
Yeah real helpful clearing fodder which you could already do.
Placebo:
Literally why?
Stats++:
Min-maxing. You're lame if you choose these. The haxier characters will still probably btfo you.
Advanced truths:
These are the things that got the most discussion already.
Life is amazing, Agony is good, Love is good, Chance and Fate are basically nothing, Defiance is good, Sacrifice is good, Silence is good, Adapt is good, Divinity is basically nothing. Chance, Fate, and Divinity all would need examples on how they would work, and there aren't any.
Riastrad:
Eh. Str++ is annoying to grab for mage builds, so the "cast while raging" thing is just kinda there. Min-maxing otherwise.
Vajra:
Tank maxing. Weakens your spells for some reason.
Ratatoskr:
You can outspeed basically everything. Problems arise if there are too many things or you can't hurt something.
Hermai:
Better to spell max some other way.
Rishon:
All++ but worse. You get to give curse the finger, I guess.
Spelleat line:
Fine for the antimage. Similar problem to Ratatoskr with there being too many things to eat.
Feed:
Giver on a budget. Just take Giver.
Entrap:
Anyone you would kill with this would be killed anyway. Unless it's Mr. Ratatoskr. Sorry Maha, this is your kryptonite.
Ultimatum:
Strength maxing.
Glint:
Why.
Lash:
Better uses of Void.
Maharathi:
Yeah, I bet that comes up often. <- sarcasm btw
Diapason:
Just use spelleat if you can use others spells. Otherwise, lmao.
Terrify:
Just use Terror.
Drain:
Nice for minionmancers to grab a snack. Take regen otherwise.
Arsenal:
See Maharathi. WHY IS IT SO EXPENSIVE?
Farstrike:
Uhh... ok.
Chakra:
Truth maxing. You really don't see many of those.
HP Regen+:
Spectacular. We all remember Chudstal.
Res Up+:
"Almost all". Any status maxer is gonna mess you up. Good if no one is status maxing.
Living Weapon:
I mean... ok. Neat... I guess.
Solitude:
Minionmancers will eat you alive if you have no backup. Better hope you can outspeed or sneak past the minions. If the other team has more than 2 guys equal to you without solitude you are also screwed.
T-Arts:
Ok. Techniques kinda only exist for maxing anyway, and only one is needed. I guess Ultimatum and Repel would be nice.
Arete:
The "I outstat you" option if you are equal otherwise.
Telos:
Why isn't this just a truth? Just as vague. In fact, almost as vague as chance and fate. I wouldn't pick this.
Kadmon:
ANOTHER statmaxing thing. I tried translating that Korean dlc, and I stopped whenever I was stuck at the giant wall of statmaxing.
Howl:
Just pick res++. Unless it's just res but better.
Aphonia:
Lmao why was this banned? It's just void but worse.
Zelos:
Another weird lorebit about The End when MYS wakes up. Raises some questions, I hate the lore. Also just as vague as Telos.
Musahn:
See Aphonia.
Evolve:
One of the ways to prep time stat max. Fine if you're doing that I guess, but I think it's worse than the other ways, which will be elaborated on later.
Mutate:
Ok. I guess you could like... grow gills.
Lazarus:
I guess I could see why this was banned. See Chudstal for if you still wanna do it.
Apex:
Oh boy! Stats.
Chaunt:
Vague. Needs an example on what you can do.
Attend:
Gee that's useful. <- sarcasm
Reroll:
Banned so you can't just say one guy was no longer alive. Someone must've used reroll to destroy reroll.
Atavism:
Just another meaningless stat ball, may as well not be banned.
Advanced elements:
Light has utility, but honestly, even if the timefags hate me for it, it's still probably only barely top 6. Dark for if you're fighting some guy for a real long time, but that's niche and the minionmancer outlasts you. Vitriol is hobo void, just use void. Crystal will be elaborated on in the ego section; Chudstal is Chudstal. Sea is the upgrade to water. Sun is for if you hate Sanctasanctorums and necromancers. Specifically just them. Void is what makes backstab irrelevent. It would make strength irrelevent too if not for the grapple bonuses. Dream is just the plot power, only Potion Pete is gonna use it, and for plot.
Advanced spells:
If you're wizard maxing, just pick one or two offensive ones and then only care about utility ones.
Transmute:
Khuldor uses this. It's not like what he does is busted or anything, so even if you agree with me that it probably doesn't work like that I don't care let him have it. Otherwise meh.
Distill:
Statball: wizard edition. Worse than ego and you are better off choosing ego with other things. The one "meta" element that would use it (void) probably can't be effected.
Siphon:
Same deal as drain for minionmancers.
Rune:
Best trap spell. If you're Sanctasanctorum maxing, choose it. You honestly don't need to take other spells for your runes; you have enchant, so just make magic "spells" like "rock drop" or "just spikes". Meteor would be nice though. Also great for minionmancy.
U-Cast:
I think it would be good for taking, but honestly; if someone is so close to you that they can disrupt your spells you're probably dead.
Scry:
Utillity.
Sanctasanctorum:
An optimal team wants at least SOMEONE with this. A well stocked sancta is basically impenetrable. You either nuke it or fill it with minions. Some minions like envoys are probably screwed if they enter though.
Advele to Ego:
Optimal spellmaxing. Chudstal (who can't be put down) to beat Voidcels (who we've decided in an earlier thread probably couldn't become full ego; they stop at +++) and Earth/Icechads to beat Chudstal by putting him in a box. Voidcel one shots just about everything. Earth or Ice are equal; they're both the only physical element (that you can move). You only need one though. Ice is probably less effective in general but has more niches.
3-Eye:
Good for utility.
Absorb:
Antimagic but colored blue instead of red. Pick your poison.
Dispell:
See Absorb.
Ta Hiera:
Unmei, Khuldor, and Skelly all have good uses of this. (Should I even count Skelly?)
Probably not optimal, but fun and gimmicky. Gimmicky is the best adjective something can have btw.
Yood:
A big nothingburger.
D-Cast:
...Ok.
S-Cast:
...Ok.
M-Cast:
Any Voidcel should take this and combine it with lightning.
C-Cast:
I don't see the use.
Sign:
Voidcel can barely fit this, maybe at the cost of no lightning. Expensive, but ok if you just want firepower. Better take HP Regen.
Industria:
Very niche. Only minionmancers could use this effectively. Even then, Potion Pete should've dropped this and chance and just grab the final golem level, but he did it for plot reasons so good for him!
Overload:
Only good if you take my advice on rune from earlier to give traps some extra pop.
Consume:
Very niche. Absorb everything in your Sancta for a last ditch effort I guess?
Artifact:
Why.
Grimoire:
Why.
Advanced Golem:
One of the best minionmancy skills. Homonc has plenty of use and omega is really handy. Automata seems really niche. I don't think going to highest level with omega is even required to be optimal; you're gonna be swamping with numbers anyway. Pete not having omega truly is a plot inconvenience.
Envoy:
The worst minionmancing. Still good because it's minionmancing.
Nous:
Only optimal for Voidcels honestly. Pick other things if you're going full ego.
Magi:
Too expensive for anyone to fit.
Thauma:
This could mean literally anything.
Shusai:
Plot. Did any of the MYS relevent builds even take this?
Advanced status:
Sleep and Curse are great. Terror is needed for a really good build. Toxic is there. Charm is meh. Death is just for necromancy and Ta Hiera; worse than void for one shots.
Advanced status moves:
No one really has any reason to use these except dart. Sleep or Curse Dart basically one shots every build. Infect makes someone lose later; give them cancer and run away. Really expensive, though.
Boil:
If you ever need to kill someone who's immune you uses this. OR you could use sleep or curse like a normal person. Just use those, same price.
Suction:
If the alchemist can't remove an ailment through plot, you use this. Also torture someone if you want I guess. Make yourself taller with some creative application? Should work on tanks as well, so a one shot with enough time. If you capture someone but they evolved too much, let their bones solve the issue!
Divine:
Plot power. I guess you now know how to use the fate truth effectively? And people with chance can ignore it? Idk.
Teleport:
Useful utility.
Also.
teleports behind you
nothing personnel kid
Mind Control:
The reason envoy minionmancy even has a niche. Some guy said maybe this could be used to kill Chudstal, and even though it was decided it wouldn't work for other reasons, I don't think it would work on any ego user; they could just remove the affected part and get a new one. Useful if you catch someone lacking; you have a new minion! If you prefer this to homonculus'ing is up to you.
Hymn:
...ok. You get to use one extra ability... WHILE using this ability. 1 + 1 - 1 = 1. Am I just stupid or is it worded incorrectly?
Dance:
Per the first dance: "You can not dance effectively while fighting."
I guess you could use it while your being healed?
Song oD:
Generic debuff. You would be better off doing anything else in range, even using a better debuff like dart ANYTHING.
Song oR:
Per discord notes, this isn't a time stop. It just doesn't do anything. YAY!
March:
Ok I guess. Not like commoners are relevent.
Necromancy:
Pretty good minionmancing. Also comes with an effect to stat yourself. Also utility in bringing back dead people! Beware the one guy who uses sun.
Pheromone:
Meh.
Alpha:
Pheromone but better.
Trainer:
Fantastic minionmancing. Live out your Pokémon trainer dreams. You may have only a few minions unless you choose something like bugs. Bug swarm probably is the best option. Maybe the occasional big unit. Also stats. Also transfer stats from smaller units to big units or vice versa. Also steal all stats from captured enemies after a session of terrifying them.
Meridian:
Status maxing. If you wanna one shot someone and not use void for some reason, you may as well use curse or sleep.
Arioso:
Yeah real useful. For all, what, four voice abilities?
Fleshwarp:
Powercrept by faceless.
Faceless:
Infiltrate the enemy. Pretty good for a one shot build.
Assassin:
The other stuff is alright, but melding into shadows is good for stealth.
Gate:
BTFO to the shadow realm.
Travel:
Useful utility.
Collapse:
BTFO to the shadow realm. Now you can be sure they're not coming back.
Attune:
Too vague to mean anything.
Demiplane:
Why was this banned? Being an archon doesn't exactly do anything but give you sucky minions and not have to deal with pylon problems.
Summon:
They don't last very long, so not good for minionmancing. Interesting if you factor in Henosis...
World Bind:
Use a golem or rune.
Item Bind:
Use craft or enchant... or a golem.
Spell Bind:
Just use a normal spell.
Self Bind:
Used for Henosis.
Henosis:
Henosis has a very useful tech: unlimited power via drinking blood. It costs 9 points for Henosis + B-Pact; it could be very useful. Let's compare Henosis and All++ stat-maxing. Henosis and one "Stat Title" (like Vajra) boost is 12 points, while All++ and your "Stat Title" of choice is 12. In order for Henosis stats to be worth it, you have to take 3 points of some other summoning ability, because All++ stat-maxing only lets you take 3 inclduing beta summon. M Summon is probably the best use, but Body Bind could be pretty interesting. Use B-Pact for your last slot.
Land Bind:
I advise a more permanent minion.
Arma Bind:
You really only need one weapon.
Magic Bind:
Cast one extra spell! ...at a minimum of 6 points. Only useful if you are already a summoner.
Devour:
Call upon the mindless spirits for a snack sometimes. Pretty good, but expensive. You only have 2 points left if you combine this with Henosis and B-Pact.
B-Pact:
Suck blood on the daily with Henosis. Become the strongest thing ever! You could probably also juice up a normal permanent summon.
Commune:
Unreliable.
F-Bind:
...ok.
Bind:
Kill an ego guy. Sancta is easier, and has more benefits.
Ruler:
Decent minionmancing. Not sure why it's banned. I guess it's the "everlasting" part, like Lazarus.
Optimal Builds:
These builds I would consider "optimal" in some way.
Minionmancer - Every Minionmancer has niches; Golem beats Status and things that require you to be alive as well as homonculi access, Envoy has mind comtrol, Necromancy has stat-maxing and ressurection, Trainer has stat-maxing and giving and all around micro-managing, and permanent Summons have infinite potential with B-Pact. They're all about equal except Envoys which are worse.
Ego - Best spellmaxing. Like rock-paper-scissors. Crystal beats Void, Void beats Earth/Ice, and Earth/Ice beats Crystal. There are also other uses. Consider Light for a timestop, Lightning for non-Void firepower, and Sun if you hate Sanctasanctorum. Sea might have unlimited potential as well.
M-Cast - Void can't go past +++ without not making sense. Grab M-Cast Sun or Lightning to fill the Void. (heh)
Tank - Crystal Ego outdoes any tanking. Anything they are weak to Tanks are weak to in general.
LIFTMAX - The statball abilities are vague. Grab Henosis (Atk) with B-Pact for true infinite potential. You still have 2 points left for whatever. Also consider Dominator instead for attack power potential.
Non-void one shot - If for whatever reason you wanna kill something without Void, use Curse. Works on non living things, and Dart should be a grave dosage. Use Sleep otherwise, as it's cheaper.
Sancta - Put down an ego user for good. Fill with runes or minions. Consider Scry.
Stealthmax - Assassin, also use things like Faceless.
Gate - One of the other ways to permanently kill an ego user. Also good for travel.
Healing - Light Ego to rewind, and Brew, Alchemy, and Suction for plot heals.