A chat about the nature of oneiromancy in Vitubian metaphysics

Ohh, dreams, huh? Hmm dreams are already established to be a state of mind where one is closer to the supernatural, both IRL and in Vitubia, where information from the Heavenly Realm can be received through them. Then if you use chuubanite, perhaps you could manipulate your dream state to peek into someone else's dream by reading it from the Heavenly Realm. Kinda like a man-in-the-middle attack where you intercept the dreamer's transmissions to the Heavenly Realm.
If you were an advanced user, you could even perhaps create a magical construct that feels like the Heavenly Realm, and have the dreamer dream fully in a Realm under your control. With the analogy, that would be like tricking a client into connecting to your own fake server instead of the real server. Shit, is this how we get Netrunners into Vitubia? Or stuff like Inception.

I tried reading that part of the chuubanite rentry but I still don’t know what’s going on in that which is why I asked for help, but if it’s possible and not too OP then it sounds like it should work!
I did have Paprika and Inception in mind when thinking about that but I don’t know how plausible it is. I think it’ll at least require a controlled environment filled with specific organic vapor to enter an advanced state like that so it probably can’t be abused too much (maybe?) and a shared dream might require all participants to share a room or otherwise be in the exact same environment for it to work? I think it’s more meant for balance than anything based on existing physics/biology. I think they have something similar in Wheel of Time but I haven’t read it yet

The relation of the metaphysics system to dreams is very under-developed, so we're kind of treading new ground. But the QRD on it is that the Heavenly Realm can be seen a server, which serves magic to clients.
The clients take the form of chuubanite, and magic entities.
All beings have at least a tiny fraction of themselves in the Heavenly Realm; call it their soul if you want.
Since dreams have a precedent for being used to communicate things with the Heavenly Realm, I think it's fair to say a dream can be an opportunity for a Soul to connect to the Heavenly Realm.
The challenge when trying to share a dream with someone would be how to connect to their Soul. If the two Souls are separate, there is no way they could find one another in the immense Heavenly Realm.
So as you say, chuubanite (which can act as a client for the Heavenly Realm server) can be used here to connect the two dreaming Souls, essentially creating a Local Network which connects to the Heavenly Realm. I think that works well!

A possibility for sharing a dream at a distance: one of the dreamers would need to be infused with a lot of conceptual energy, so that once they connect to the Heavenly Realm, they emit a signal that can be picked up by another aware dreamer. That is perhaps how chuubas communicate divinations to their followers. In Vitubia, that might look like putting the dreamer in some kind of chuubanitic device (A dreaming throne?) or injecting them with a near lethal dose of chuubanite. There are parallels with /asp/otheosis.

For those two options, what you'd be doing would be sharing a dream, so you'd be able to exchange information on an even footing with other dreamers, perhaps use manipulation or gaslighting, but you'd have to play with the Heavenly Realm's rules. Forcing something on other dreamers would be a contest of willpower. If you had a more nefarious purpose and wanted to do more non-consensual things to the other dreamer, that's when you'd need to make the dreamer dream in your fake server that is under your control instead of the Heavenly Realm. That would be very high level chuubanitic oneiromancy though...

That makes sense to me, thanks! I think I’ll try to read more about how the whole concept thing works later. Does that mean the soul’s technically not part of you since that fraction of yourself’s in the Heavenly Realm and you dream to make the two in sync? Or does that work differently?
Using some kinda device to amplify one’s signal sounds interesting although I don’t know if distant communications like that are allowed in this setting. Being able to manipulate/share a dream with others opens up a lot of possibilities too

Does that mean the soul’s technically not part of you since that fraction of yourself’s in the Heavenly Realm and you dream to make the two in sync?

Interesting... I think your Soul and your being on Vitubia are always connected/in-sync, the dream is more like just something that makes it easier to communicate with it, perhaps because all physical distractions are tuned out. Maybe you can enter a dream-like state useful for divination with deep meditation. That would be more compatible with the concept of the janitors, who are beings that have a much larger fraction of their being in the Heavenly Realm, but can take conscious action on Vitubia.

if distant communications like that are allowed in this setting.

I think what came out of this topic is that it's allowed as long as it's impractical and inefficient enough to not provide a massive societal utility with current technology. For example, catalognauts are able to communicate at long distances through the catalog, but catalognauts are very few in numbers. So you'd want longer range dream sharing to be locked behind very expensive and rare circumstances/magical engineering.

That makes sense! Speaking of long-range dream-sharing, we established the one sharing the dream would need some way to boost the signal for other dreamers to pick up, but what about the dreamers? Do they need special stuff to pick the amplified signal up? Do they need to consciously search for the signal? Can they pick it up accidentally?

I think they would need something. You need to tune your antenna to the right frequency to get a signal...
Well, taking the example of a Moriji priestess receiving a transmission from Mori, or a Sapling shaman divinating something from Fauna. It's straightforward to see that the respective divinators are tuned to their Goddess' "frequency" by using chuubanite of the respective type.
So, the "receiver" dreamer would need to use chuubanite of the exact same type as that used by the "emitter" dreamer. That would be like the frequency the dreamer is emitting on. Works nicely with conceptual energies being represented with waves.
The more precisely identical the receiver and emitter chuubanites are, the easier the communication would be, it would be like a better tuned radio and antenna, with less noise from other sources.
If the conditions above are fulfilled, I could see it happen accidentally.

idk why dreams are inherently magical, or why you guys seem to talk like all you need to do is emit a stronger signal instead of identifying the core concept of a dream, or the mind of the one dreaming it, and interact with it that way, but other than that it seems fine to me. if the conceptual realm is a computer, then communicating with another part of it is not like a radio, more like identifying where the memory of a specific function is being allocated. dreams are only as magical as the magical signals they sometimes are interfered by. this means your mind is always a little bit magical because your mind is the place that stores the concept of you, and magic is the result of those concepts. for the most part, everything is fine in a practical sense as far as i can tell. just that the framing is a bit confusing.
basically, i can’t easily look into your dreams by looking for signals in the chuubanite you are influenced by, but if i add a glyph to identify your dreams, or at least eliminate things that aren’t your dream, i can. the magic produced by chuubanite comes from its own concept, which is separate from your dream, but if you identify that concept, you can find it even easier. it’s like the difference between brute forcing a password vs knowing it from the get go.

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Pub: 08 Nov 2022 11:16 UTC
Edit: 08 Nov 2022 11:32 UTC
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