Transcript from 外宣招募錄音未消音完整版 | 說真話的徐某人 - 说真话的徐某人 (@xumouren)
00:00 - 00:04 Middleman: I was chatting with that assistant yesterday, and he mentioned something. What did he say? It was…
00:04 - 00:08 Blogger: I just… your connection cut out just now, I didn’t hear you clearly.
00:09 - 00:30 Middleman: Ah, I was saying… why I’m looking for you in the "military circle." Let me put it this way: what other circles am I looking into? For example, the music circle in Italy; I’ve found a few people there. There’s one called "Scigitata"—that’s a serious one. His handle is Scigitata, which is Italian, I can’t even pronounce it.
00:31 - 00:37 Middleman: He’s a musician in Milan, one of those street piano players.
00:37 - 00:40 Middleman: I’ve also found a few Japanese food bloggers.
00:40 - 00:51 Middleman: And because I was in Philadelphia early on, I found a few Philly bloggers—the kind who do car repairs. Just ordinary people. I’ve looked for people from different walks of life and social strata.
00:51 - 01:02 Middleman: I made it very clear to the higher-ups: You are the only military blogger I’ve recruited. I swear this on Chairman Mao. Why? Because I don’t actually think of you as a military blogger.
01:02 - 01:21 Middleman: The "military blogger" brand is already toxic inside China. If I really wanted a "military blogger," don't forget that the official military propaganda units have already retreated from the stage. What’s the point? I’m looking for you precisely because you don’t only talk about military stuff.
01:21 - 01:26 Middleman: Let me give you the simplest example. The higher-ups are definitely watching Wang Zhian. That goes without saying, right?
01:26 - 01:28 Blogger: Yeah, right. Hey, so why didn’t you go look for Wang Zhian?
01:29 - 01:34 Middleman: I can’t look for Wang Zhian. That big mouth of his.
01:34 - 01:39 Middleman: And let me tell you, the Organization actually doesn't like him—they really don't like him.
01:40 - 01:42 Blogger: Is that so? That’s strange.
01:42 - 01:46 Middleman: You really don’t know what happened to Wang Zhian?
01:46 - 01:47 Blogger: No, what happened?
01:47 - 01:55 Middleman: The trouble Wang Zhian got into wasn't just a matter of "badmouthing" people. The Party-State can handle it if you guys curse the Communist Party.
01:56 - 02:04 Middleman: Wang Zhian’s problem is that he got mixed up with Wu Xiaohui. Wu Xiaohui was a man personally taken down by "The Emperor" (Xi Jinping) himself.
02:05 - 02:11 Middleman: So Wang Zhian whines all day about whether he’s being persecuted—it’s total bullsh*t.
02:12 - 02:16 Blogger: But what about someone like Teacher Li (Li Laoshi)? What about him?
02:16 - 02:18 Middleman: No way. That's definitely not going to work.
02:18 - 02:21 Blogger: Is that so? Why?
02:21 - 02:24 Middleman: It’s just not possible.
02:24 - 02:27 Middleman: Look, that’s a situation where the Ministry can’t even give an explanation to "Number One" (Xi).
02:27 - 02:30 Blogger: I see. So his "level" is quite high.
02:30 - 02:32 Middleman: Very high. His level is truly very high.
02:33 - 02:50 Blogger: But even if you say that… if you exclude those two… like, Wang Zhian is the "Big Brother" of political commentary on YouTube, whether you like him or not. And Teacher Li has the most traffic on Twitter, right?
02:50 - 02:56 Blogger: Then for the rest, there are some you definitely can't work with—like Wenzhao and people like him. You can’t touch them, right?
02:57 - 03:03 Blogger: But even among the remaining people, there are quite a few. Like "Toronto Square Face" (多伦多方脸) and so on, right?
03:03 - 03:09 Middleman: Square Face won't work. He's been "named." Square Face and Teacher Li are both no-goes.
03:09 - 03:14 Blogger: I see. So when you guys had your meetings, you already discussed who won't work?
03:14 - 03:22 Middleman: Who is absolutely a "no." Why? Because… well, the tone set by the top is that we can't have "rafters that stick out too far."
03:23 - 03:27 Blogger: Huh?
03:27 - 03:30 Middleman: "The rafter that sticks out too far [rots first]."
03:30 - 03:36 Blogger: Holy sh*t, so that means I’m not "outstanding" enough.
03:31 - 03:37 Middleman: You’re really not that "outstanding," but you have a certain influence. The Organization likes people like you best.
03:37 - 03:41 Blogger: I see. Hey, what about foreigners like Lele Farley?
03:41 - 03:45 Middleman: They aren't liked at all. Not at all.
03:45 - 03:45 Blogger: Why?
03:46 - 03:54 Middleman: Yeah. The Organization feels that the people on camera should try to represent… the Organization’s image. Lele Farley is a Black guy, right?
03:54 - 04:00 Blogger: What? He’s obviously white. He’s Anglo-Saxon. How is he Black? Haven’t you seen him?
04:00 - 04:01 Middleman: Why did I think he was Black?
04:01 - 04:06 Blogger: You’re misremembering. The Black guy is "Hao Ji Che" (Great Loco), he’s in Taiwan. That’s someone else.
04:07 - 04:09 Middleman: Anyway, what’s the deal with Lele Farley?
04:10 - 04:15 Middleman: Poor personal image.
04:15 - 04:18 Blogger: Really? I feel like his image is quite good.
04:19 - 04:26 Middleman: No. And another thing, let me put it this way: if he comes on board, where would that leave Jerry Guo (Guo Jie-rui)?
04:26 - 04:30 Blogger: But Jerry Guo… he’s already "in," right? He’s already cooperating? Working with you guys?
04:31 - 04:37 Middleman: Exactly. But he… he’s not in my system. He’s in the Central Propaganda Department system. Jerry Guo belongs to Central Propaganda.
04:38 - 04:43 Middleman: Truly. But at the end of the day, we all see each other around. We don’t want people fighting each other, you know?
04:44 - 04:52 Middleman: Furthermore, there’s another thing: some things need to be "controllable." You know what I mean by controllable? Someone like Lele Farley…
04:52 - 05:02 Middleman: After all, he’s a U.S. citizen. If he has a falling out with Jerry Guo and spills all our internal business all over the streets… the "Heads" have a reputation to maintain.
05:03 - 05:13 Blogger: Mm-hmm. But… right? Look, you're telling me all this—how do you know I won't just post a tweet later saying, "Hey, so-and-so contacted me," and then expose you? Then you guys are finished.
05:13 - 05:21 Middleman: There are a few reasons. First, from the first day I met you, I told you I came from within the "system."
05:21 - 05:28 Blogger: Well… right? Lots of people come from the system. Look at Wang Zhian, he’s from the system too. His background is even "harder" than yours, right?
05:28 - 05:36 Middleman: Second, we’ve known each other for three years. I haven’t screwed you over, have I?
05:36 - 05:40 Blogger: Well, that’s true. Mainly because you couldn't screw me over anyway, right?
05:40 - 05:51 Middleman: Mm-hmm. Including that time online when you were being "doxxed" and you complained to me about it. Psychologically speaking, there’s a certain level of trust between us.
05:51 - 06:03 Middleman: To tell you the truth, calling you does involve some risk. Contacting any influencer involves a certain amount of risk.
06:03 - 06:12 Blogger: Of course. Like they say: no risk, no reward.
06:12 - 06:21 Middleman: Right. But in my initial contact with you, Xiao Xu, let me put it this way. I have an old saying: Why does Lele Farley have such a bad reputation domestically?
06:22 - 06:33 Middleman: A major reason is—no matter how big of a grudge you have with Jerry Guo—you two used to be friends. You shouldn't betray a comrade.
06:34 - 06:44 Middleman: No matter the grudge, don't use it… having been friends once. Inside the "Party-State," we still follow some of those old "Green Gang" (Triad) rules. We judge people by those codes.
06:44 - 06:51 Middleman: People who immediately start airing dirty laundry and drama can’t be used.
06:52 - 07:02 Middleman: It’s not just about how "loyal" you are. Simply put, we want to find people with clean backgrounds.
07:02 - 07:11 Middleman: Even though you curse the Communist Party, curse the pandemic policies, and talk about "Beijing Five Days" every day—your background is clean.
07:12 - 07:17 Blogger: That’s true. After all, I’ve never been involved in this kind of business before.
07:18 - 07:30 Middleman: Right. We both have relatively clean backgrounds. And you have a certain amount of trust in me.
07:31 - 07:42 Blogger: But… didn't you used to do a show with Jin Canrong? If they all get kicked out, wouldn’t you be implicated too?
07:43 - 07:54 Middleman: Jin Canrong and I are in different systems. Think about it: I told you the first day we met that I know all the "Wumao" (trolls).
07:55 - 08:08 Middleman: But I also told you my family is in Philadelphia, and you understand what I’ve been through, right?
08:09 - 08:18 Middleman: We’ve both opened up to each other about those things. On that basis—given that we’ve shared personal matters—I don’t think you’d sell me out.
08:19 - 08:29 Middleman: I believe in your character, that’s all there is to it. I’m a Catholic; I believe in your character.
08:30 - 08:35 Blogger: Wait, they’re okay with a person of faith like you cooperating with them?
08:35 - 08:35 Middleman: Yeah.
08:36 - 08:42 Middleman: The Party-State… that's how they work. The Party-State is very pragmatic, you know?
08:43 - 08:52 Middleman: Regarding this project: don’t look for the "big accounts." Some of them talk a big game but are useless. The Party-State looks at the numbers.
08:53 - 09:10 Middleman: Even if, for example, you hide a bit of "poison" or "private agenda" in your external propaganda—the Party-State doesn't care. They look at the numbers.
09:11 - 09:19 Middleman: As long as your influence is high, it’s fine. If the overall message is acceptable, you can bury some personal stuff occasionally.
09:20 - 09:30 Middleman: Let me give you a simple example.
09:31 - 09:40 Blogger: But for a channel like mine… you mentioned introducing travel or events earlier. I’m a military guy. If I suddenly do an episode like that, it’ll be very weird, don’t you think?
09:41 - 09:49 Blogger: I’m definitely going to talk about the Russia-Ukraine war, the Israel-Palestine conflict. That’s my content. What else do you want me to do?
09:50 - 09:56 Middleman: Talk about the Taiwan Strait. You can talk about a war in the Taiwan Strait. On Taiwan's military, let’s just speak the truth.
09:56 - 10:02 Middleman: I later left that small Russia-Ukraine group you pulled together. You know about that, right?
10:03 - 10:04 Blogger: Which group?
10:04 - 10:14 Middleman: That small Russia-Ukraine group you pulled together on Twitter…
10:15 - 10:17 Blogger: I don’t even look at that anymore.
10:18 - 10:24 Middleman: I left that group. Let me tell you straight.
10:25 - 10:35 Middleman: Regarding "Abrams" (another influencer)—to be honest, I’ve always believed that when gentlemen part ways, they shouldn't speak ill of each other.
10:36 - 10:38 Blogger: You think he went too far? Too "Zhihei" (anti-Chinese)?
10:39 - 10:47 Middleman: Being "Zhihei" isn't the problem. His problem is… look, Taiwan’s military has issues.
10:48 - 11:00 Middleman: You guys need to objectively acknowledge and recognize these problems. Don’t start jumping down people's throats the moment these issues are brought up.
11:01 - 11:15 Middleman: And when I bring up more specific issues, they start with the "Oh, I don’t know about that." Usually they’re so arrogant, but the moment I hit a pressure point, they start dodging. It’s meaningless.
11:16 - 11:22 Middleman: This is actually the biggest problem with Taiwanese military fans. They’re exactly the same as the mainland military fans.
11:23 - 11:32 Blogger: They don't see it. But look, if that’s the case, shouldn't you be asking me to say good things about Taiwan? Like "Taiwan is so powerful," to make them complacent?
11:33 - 11:35 Middleman: No.
11:36 - 11:46 Middleman: On the contrary, it’s about Taiwan’s deficiencies.
11:46 - 11:51 Blogger: But I already talk about Taiwan’s deficiencies. Wouldn’t that… wouldn't you be redundant then?
11:52 - 12:00 Middleman: See, this is the core issue. After you talk about Taiwan’s deficiencies, you can "turn it in" [to the bosses] as a job well done.
12:01 - 12:08 Middleman: I can turn that in quite respectably. No problem there, right?
12:09 - 12:19 Middleman: You talk about Taiwan’s flaws—I turn it in respectably. At the same time, it needles them a bit. To be honest, I can also… look, freedom is like "debating scripture." My debate is…
12:20 - 12:35 Middleman: It’s about disrupting the internal confidence Taiwan has in its own defense. Yes, a lack of confidence.
12:36 - 12:56 Middleman: And ideally, your program… I’ll have CTi (中天, a pro-unification outlet) repost it.
12:57 - 13:00 Blogger: Holy sh*t, that’s no joke.
13:01 - 13:06 Blogger: Having CTi repost it is serious business. Let me tell you.
13:07 - 13:07 Middleman: (Laughs)
13:08 - 13:17 Middleman: Of course, if you don't agree… let me tell you, Xiao Xu: for any of this work, you can obviously say no now. But if you do take it, remember my principles of cooperation.
13:18 - 13:28 Middleman: First, I won’t screw you over. Second, regarding exactly how far we go at each step, I will completely defer to your opinion.
13:29 - 13:39 Middleman: For a very simple reason: if you take this job, you’re a "nail" (agent) I’ve planted. I can’t let my "nail" be exposed.
13:40 - 13:48 Blogger: Wait, which side is this "nail" planted on? Is it… for example, a nail to fight the West? Or a nail planted within National Security?
13:49 - 14:02 Middleman: If I… if I’m standing on the side of money, you’re a nail against the West. If you’re standing on the side of freedom, you’re a nail against the "Commie Bandits" (土共).
14:03 - 14:06 Blogger: I see. So a "two-way nail," then? A double agent.
14:07 - 14:14 Middleman: Oh, well… don’t put it so crudely. I don’t "do" espionage. Espionage is dangerous business.
14:15 - 14:27 Middleman: I’m just saying… don’t you think… I’ve always felt that neutrality itself is a principle. Do you get what I mean? I’m serious about this.
14:28 - 14:45 Middleman: Being neutral is actually a very principled thing. And in the Twitter and overseas Chinese communities, what’s lacking is precisely neutrality and objectivity.
14:46 - 14:46 Blogger: Mm-hmm.
14:47 - 15:05 Middleman: If you just… let me tell you: in the overseas Chinese community, maintaining neutrality and objectivity is enough to damage and deter "Taiwan Independence." Can you understand what I'm saying?
15:06 - 15:13 Blogger: Well… how should I put this? Your "neutrality" or "objectivity" is actually aimed at the non-Taiwanese groups.
15:14 - 15:26 Blogger: If you want to do this within the Taiwanese community, you’d probably have to pull over someone like "Potter King" (摄徒日记)—that would be more effective. Otherwise, it doesn't really count as a "deterrent."
15:27 - 15:27 Middleman: No, no, no.
15:28 - 15:39 Middleman: Let me tell you, baby: "Moistening things silently." The tone set by the top this time is explicitly that it must be silent and subtle.
15:40 - 15:48 Blogger: So you’re saying this is a very long-term plan. Doing one or two episodes doesn’t count as "moistening things silently."
15:49 - 15:58 Blogger: You’d definitely need a long-term plan, right?
15:59 - 16:03 Middleman: That’s why it’s 40,000 Euros a month.
16:04 - 16:07 Blogger: I see. That’s your funding, right?
16:08 - 16:11 Middleman: It’s not my funding. It’s the Organization’s funding. I don’t have that kind of money.
16:12 - 16:21 Blogger: Same thing. I’m just a middleman taking a cut.
16:22 - 16:32 Middleman: Well, sure. If you can pull it off, it’s your funding. If you can’t, then it’s the Organization’s funding. Right?
16:33 - 16:34 Blogger: Yeah, right.
16:35 - 16:40 Middleman: No. It’s a long-term… long-term… long-term project to "moisten things silently."
16:41 - 16:44 Middleman: Right. Actually, Old Yuan (Yuan Tengfei) is preparing to join in, too.
16:45 - 16:46 Blogger: Yuan Tengfei?
16:47 - 16:53 Middleman: Yeah. Oh… that’s actually quite interesting.
16:54 - 17:03 Middleman: But you’re not allowed to say anything. I just let that slip. I was… slightly showing off. A slip of the tongue.
17:04 - 17:04 Blogger: Mm-hmm.
17:05 - 17:15 Middleman: It’s not set in stone yet. It hasn’t been finalized. The reason it hasn't been finalized is… it’s a bit expensive.
17:16 - 17:19 Blogger: (Laughs) Well, he’s definitely going to ask for a high price.
17:20 - 17:31 Blogger: But shouldn’t you release some real footage of him first? He’s been using animation for so long. It’s not convincing.
17:32 - 17:39 Middleman: Why? As soon as he’s willing to submit to the Organization, they’ll naturally let him out [on camera].
17:40 - 17:49 Blogger: Oh. I see. Then I’ll watch for that signal. Once you let him show his face, I’ll know: "Oh, this thing has started. The project is live."
17:50 - 18:14 Middleman: What the Organization means is… what’s the task for Yuan Tengfei? You just need to promote "good" Chinese culture. Because the Organization has clearly observed that overseas, there are large numbers of people…
18:15 - 18:31 Middleman: For example… if you say Chinese traditional culture has "dross," like blind loyalty and filial piety to a monarch—sure, it definitely does.
18:32 - 18:41 Middleman: But you can’t just dismiss the most beautiful parts of traditional culture—Confucius, Mencius—all as dross. That’s Yuan Tengfei’s task.
18:42 - 18:59 Middleman: Basically, don’t worry about anything else. We’re not making you… you can "sell out" the Communist Party a little less. We can even tolerate it if you sell us out occasionally. But your main task is to promote the beautiful aspects of traditional Chinese culture.
19:00 - 19:15 Middleman: Like the old saying goes: the Organization still wants to maintain some sort of image.
19:16 - 19:34 Blogger: Let me ask then: where is the boundary? Let’s say you have me do a show, and I just do whatever.
19:35 - 19:43 Blogger: If I end up frantically cursing Xi Jinping, that’s obviously not going to fly, right? You won’t be satisfied. So what’s the boundary?
19:44 - 19:53 Middleman: "Small scolding, big help" (小骂大帮忙).
19:54 - 19:56 Blogger: Even so, there has to be a line. I want to hear what that line is.
19:57 - 19:59 Middleman: You know "Xiao Dao Da Lang Chui" (Island Times)?
20:00 - 20:06 Blogger: Yeah, I know him. Oh, so he’s already "in," is he?
20:07 - 20:13 Middleman: He’s not… he’s not in our system, but he is [working with them].
20:14 - 20:20 Blogger: So you mean if I do it like he does, that’s fine.
20:21 - 20:28 Middleman: Right. Because didn’t "Xiao Dao" just go back to Singapore from the mainland? Why do you think he was able to go back to China?
20:29 - 20:29 Blogger: Mm-hmm.
20:30 - 20:41 Blogger: Ah, I didn’t follow that. But when you put it that way, I understand.
20:42 - 20:51 Middleman: But… the Organization is still slightly dissatisfied with "Xiao Dao."
20:52 - 0:54 Blogger: Dissatisfied with what? I think he’s doing quite well.
20:55 - 21:05 Middleman: He is doing well. Over a million followers. It’s just… well, we still have to save a little face for Chairman Mao.
21:06 - 21:09 Blogger: Save face for Chairman Mao? Or Chairman Xi?
21:10 - 21:14 Middleman: Basically, you absolutely cannot curse Chairman Xi.
21:15 - 21:26 Blogger: But that’s a problem. I just asked if I could curse Xi, and you said "small scolding, big help." That’s a conflict, a contradiction.
21:27 - 21:40 Middleman: No. You can "small scold" the Communist Party, but Xi is absolutely off-limits.
21:41 - 21:51 Blogger: That’s going to be very troublesome, you see.
21:51 - 21:59 Middleman: You’ve played the social media game for so many years; I have confidence in your ability to handle that boundary.
22:00 - 22:15 Blogger: (Laughs)
22:16 - 22:31 Blogger: So, for example… let’s take "Xiao Dao" or Wang Zhian.
22:32 - 22:42 Blogger: If someone like them were to do this program, they surely wouldn't just be doing it for the money.
22:43 - 22:44 Middleman: Mm-hmm.
22:45 - 22:56 Blogger: For someone like Wang Zhian, he might think: "Can I get permission to return to China?" Let’s use him as an example.
22:57 - 23:13 Blogger: Could there be help in terms of lifting the ban on his identity? Or even traffic support? For example, look at CGTN—they don't have much traffic. Their subscriber counts are all faked. Is there any support in that regard?
23:14 - 23:25 Middleman: No. No. Let me tell you a few things. First, the Organization will never use Wang Zhian. That’s for sure.
23:26 - 23:27 Blogger: Right, I was just using him as an example.
23:28 - 23:42 Middleman: An example, right. Second, regarding the Organization’s business… how should I put this… we can’t "fake" traffic for you right now. Because faking it makes it very easy to be exposed.
23:43 - 23:55 Middleman: In the past, many of those who were exposed were caught because they faked their numbers, you know?
23:56 - 24:04 Blogger: Oh, so it has to be authentic.
24:05 - 24:19 Middleman: Right, authentic. Faking it… it really doesn't work. For four or five years, the Propaganda Department was buying fans. They bought fans for four or five years.
24:20 - 24:34 Middleman: Eventually, the foreign media exposed it. I saw it—certain accounts were shown to have bought their followers. It’s very easy to check. Holy sh*t. Don’t underestimate those foreign investigation firms.
24:35 - 24:45 Middleman: It ended up making the Organization look very embarrassed and put them in a passive position. That’s the second thing.
24:46 - 25:02 Middleman: Third… about Wang Zhian returning home, I haven’t looked into that. But… let me put it this way… for example, that Italian musician I mentioned… well, at a networking event, you could show up as a guest, be surrounded by prominent people.
25:03 - 25:09 Blogger: Hey, for that Italian music circle guy—is he Italian or Chinese?
25:10 - 25:11 Middleman: Italian.
25:12 - 25:27 Middleman: I see. He’s in the music circle, but he has his own company. Since it involves some trade-related matters, we can talk about that.
25:28 - 25:34 Middleman: If you have other business business, we can talk.
25:35 - 25:42 Blogger: I don’t, I was just curious. Because it just so happens I also know someone in the Italian music circle. Just confirming.
25:43 - 25:44 Middleman: Mm-hmm.
25:45 - 25:52 Middleman: Look, I’m taking a risk calling you. Don’t go spreading this everywhere.
25:53 - 25:56 Blogger: Don’t worry, I won’t.
25:57 - 26:12 Blogger: I have to… how should I say? I need to digest this. You can’t expect me to… give you a direct answer today. That’s very difficult. I need to think about it, right?
26:13 - 26:24 Middleman: Let me tell you, Xiao Xu, I’ll be honest with you. I’m doing this for the money.
26:25 - 26:34 Blogger: Well… what do you think my fundamental ideology is?
26:35 - 26:47 Blogger: I mean, it doesn't depend on you. To be blunt: you’re not the one giving me the money, right? You aren’t the one paying me. You’re asking the Organization for the funds.
26:48 - 26:56 Blogger: Right? So the Organization calls the shots. Your ideology only plays a role in recommending and screening. But the final decision is theirs.
26:57 - 27:01 Middleman: Let me finish. Look… you can’t fight City Hall.
27:02 - 27:11 Middleman: I know. What I mean by saying this is: your buddy here is still a hardcore supporter of the Declaration of Independence.
27:12 - 27:12 Blogger: Ah. Okay.
27:13 - 27:17 Middleman: If you… if you were to sell me out…
27:18 - 27:32 Middleman: If you make me out to be a "Big Wumao" (troll), it would actually be a loss for the entire free world, you know?
27:33 - 27:43 Middleman: When I met Chen Kaige, he said something I found very convincing. He said, "If I’m the one doing this, it’s better than letting someone like 'Digua Xiong Lao Liu' (a famous ultra-nationalist troll) do it."
27:44 - 27:54 Blogger: That sounds a bit like… uh… like Wang Jingwei (the famous collaborator). "Saving the nation through a curved path."
27:55 - 28:05 Blogger: "Better I be the chairman of the Nanjing government than someone else; at least I'm better than some people." You’ve "Wang Jingwei-ized" yourself.
28:06 - 28:16 Middleman: Right, right. Hey, don't say that. This is what Chen Kaige taught me. Chen Kaige is filming that movie about the Volunteers (the Korean War), right?
28:17 - 28:22 Blogger: That’s what Chen Kaige said while he was filming the Volunteers movie.
28:23 - 28:44 Middleman: Anyway… my attitude is definitely… especially, let me tell you. We’ve chatted privately many times. I agree with almost 99% of your views.
28:45 - 29:01 Middleman: The reason I don’t say 100% is because I think there are always differences between people. We can’t say… including today… I saw that thing from "Er Ye" (Second Master’s Stories).
29:02 - 29:10 Middleman: Didn’t you repost Er Ye’s thing about ethnic minorities… the hate-speech thing? I agree with your view on that too.
29:11 - 29:14 Blogger: Hey, so why didn't you look for Er Ye?
29:15 - 29:26 Middleman: I couldn't possibly look for him. First, he’s from within the "system," he came out of the Organization. Second, someone like him who holds a belly full of hatred for the Party-State is impossible to control.
29:27 - 29:27 Blogger: Is that so?
29:28 - 29:39 Middleman: Exactly. He absolutely wouldn't. I’m not saying you are easy to control. "Control" is a harsh word… let’s put it this way:
29:40 - 29:50 Middleman: You are someone one can talk to. Do you understand? You can be reasoned with. Someone like Er Ye is impossible to talk to. Just deep-seated hatred.
29:51 - 30:02 Middleman: He’s impossible. And to be honest, brother, I’m just a guy taking a 30% cut. Is it worth it for me to get cursed out just for that 30%?
30:03 - 30:05 Blogger: That makes sense.
30:06 - 30:14 Middleman: Right? Now, about the Taiwan thing. For example, if you were to do the Taiwan thing.
30:15 - 30:30 Middleman: We won’t have CTi repost it—that would be too big. We won’t do CTi. If you just talk objectively about the deficiencies in Taiwan’s military…
30:31 - 30:42 Middleman: Let’s not say anything else. Let’s have CNN repost it. Right?
30:43 - 30:54 Blogger: You’re… you’re talking too big. Having CNN repost it?
30:55 - 31:05 Blogger: That’s a bit too much. Do you know why I got "invited for tea" (interrogated) for the first time? It was because one of my articles was reposted by Radio Free Asia.
31:06 - 31:18 Middleman: It put me in a very passive position. You know, CNN and Radio Free Asia aren’t on the same level. CNN is top-tier Western media.
31:19 - 31:31 Blogger: They’re the top of the heap. Having CNN repost one of my reports… I wouldn't dare dream of it. At most, I get reposted by RFA or Minshi (FTV Taiwan).
31:32 - 31:41 Blogger: No, listen to me. I know.
31:42 - 31:45 Middleman: The Organization never even expected you to be reposted by RFA.
31:46 - 31:52 Middleman: The Organization just hopes you’ll be reposted by some local station in Kentucky or Vermont. They’d be very satisfied with that.
31:53 - 32:05 Blogger: But my programs are often reposted by Minshi and those pro-Green Taiwanese media. You should be able to see that; it happens all the time.
32:06 - 32:13 Middleman: I actually didn’t know that… I don’t watch Taiwanese media. Because, you know, I never read the comments. There are too many idiots in the comments. Holy sh*t.
32:14 - 32:17 Blogger: Well, then your investigation wasn't thorough enough. My "Attacking Taiwan" series is often reposted by their local media.
32:18 - 32:29 Middleman: But you don’t do "Attacking Taiwan" every day.
32:30 - 32:41 Blogger: Right now there’s nothing happening, so naturally I’m not doing "Attacking Taiwan." If they haven't moved—if you guys haven't moved—there's no point. I'll wait for you to act first, right?
32:42 - 32:53 Middleman: No, sht. If we act, would we still need you? The "People’s Daily" would be on it. It’s precisely because we aren't* acting that the military propaganda units were withdrawn.
32:54 - 33:00 Middleman: That’s why the first thing I told you was that military propaganda was ordered off the historical stage. That’s good.
33:01 - 33:12 Middleman: And… you kept interrupting. Say you do something and it gets reposted by the pro-Green media. To be honest, if you say you can’t do it because there’s no action, that’s not objective either.
33:13 - 33:26 Blogger: If you put it that way… those Taiwanese military magazines come out every month. Don’t they have content? It’s all about finding an angle. That’s true.
33:27 - 33:36 Blogger: Is it possible that… look, to bring this up requires internal information.
33:37 - 33:48 Blogger: Would you disclose some internal info? For example… when an exercise is about to happen. You tell me. If I have that, I can attract a lot of eyes, right? Could that happen?
33:49 - 33:59 Middleman: If there is any, I’ll tell you. Some things… well, I know things. But I’m also quite productive, you know.
34:00 - 34:10 Blogger: I’m asking if you’d know. Since the military system has taken over this area…
34:11 - 34:25 Blogger: Would they take the initiative to leak some info to people like us? Or even "fake info"? And then we do a program on it?
34:26 - 34:39 Middleman: Anyway, I can only tell you my position. The military never leaves a paper trail for anything they give us.
34:40 - 34:53 Middleman: If I leak something to you, and you say it, and it causes some kind of impact… if I let you say it. Like, if you have information to feed me for me to say—would that happen?
34:54 - 34:57 Middleman: Maybe.
34:58 - 35:10 Blogger: It’s about traffic. Like the big media outlets, they have "internal sources," or "according to an unnamed official." If I can do that, it works.
35:11 - 35:21 Middleman: And if they don't reveal it? Since it's social media, if the higher-ups ask, they can just say "social media is full of nonsense." Like we’re just guessing. Just guessing. The Taiwanese media guesses wildly all the time.
35:22 - 35:36 Blogger: And it just so happens I guessed right. I see.
35:37 - 35:50 Middleman: So I think this thing… Oh, right. There’s another angle: the Organization has a very clear understanding of Ukraine’s victories.
35:51 - 36:06 Middleman: Specifically, they have a very clear understanding of Russia’s losses. But the Organization doesn’t quite understand Ukraine’s deficiencies. Why?
36:07 - 36:18 Middleman: This also relates to things that could happen during an attack on Taiwan. Right now, all the media is saying Ukraine is invincible and winning every battle.
36:19 - 36:31 Middleman: But there must be internal problems in the Ukrainian army. I hope you can provide some objective commentary on that. It will be submitted as an "Internal Reference" (内参).
36:32 - 36:44 Blogger: Wait, you just said you wanted "External Propaganda" (外宣). So if I do a commentary on Ukraine, it’s for people overseas, and also people inside China.
36:45 - 36:56 Blogger: For Chinese people everywhere. But then you say it’s "External Propaganda," but you also say it’s "Internal Reference." The way you do an "Internal Reference" is different from "External Propaganda."
36:57 - 37:02 Middleman: You don’t understand how "Internal Propaganda" is done. I used to be in that field.
37:03 - 37:16 Middleman: My professional background is in internal propaganda. We would look directly at the views in foreign media and then produce our content.
37:17 - 37:25 Middleman: "Reference News" (参考消息) is like that. Chairman Jiang (Zemin) once said that our internal reference system was full of useless, idiotic trash who could only translate, and he was helpless against them. In the past, our internal references were just translations of stuff like yours.
37:26 - 37:41 Blogger: Me too. Occasionally someone tells me something, but mostly I use foreign media for my Ukraine shows. I don't have better channels.
37:42 - 37:55 Middleman: Mm-hmm. If you can speak objectively and neutrally about Ukraine’s internal problems… First, it can serve as a future… I don’t think Taiwan will actually be attacked.
37:56 - 38:09 Middleman: But the "Taiwan Attack Office" won't be closed. They have to submit reports every day. You understand how that works.
38:10 - 38:18 Blogger: So I’m basically applying for a promotion from "External Propaganda" to "PLA Internal Reference."
38:19 - 38:31 Middleman: Often, external propaganda and internal reference have synchronized functions. That’s the first thing.
38:32 - 38:47 Middleman: Second, your external propaganda—speaking objectively about Ukraine’s flaws—can easily undermine the confidence of the Taiwanese military. That’s also part of external propaganda.
38:48 - 38:58 Middleman: Let's think about it. The "deficiencies" we’re talking about are within the context of the Russia-Ukraine war. How would that impact Taiwan?
38:59 - 39:10 Middleman: Okay, let me give you an example: the F-16. A while ago, I wrote a short piece and posted it on my own channel. I didn’t show it to you guys.
39:11 - 39:20 Middleman: For example, Zelenskyy’s F-16 canopy was yellowing. Did you notice that?
39:21 - 39:30 Middleman: The canopy was yellowing because it had silvered. It wasn’t a coating; it was silvering. From that detail, I could see those fighters are really old.
39:31 - 39:43 Middleman: They’re from the 80s. Whether they even have look-down/shoot-down capability is a question.
39:44 - 40:02 Middleman: Now, those planes… let’s not talk about the level of Taiwan’s F-16Vs after their Viper upgrade. But their airframe life is only maybe seven or eight years different from those 80s European fighters.
40:03 - 40:11 Middleman: They’re basically the same. If you can state that objectively… military fans don’t know any better. Most of them don't understand this.
40:12 - 40:24 Middleman: If you can say it, a fan will think, "Holy sh*t, are Taiwan’s fighters also suffering from severe airframe aging?"
40:25 - 40:37 Middleman: To be honest, you’re just throwing out a point. You’re better than Liu Bao-jie (host of "Critical Moment"), right?
40:38 - 40:48 Middleman: So if you state these things objectively, the higher-ups can see Ukraine’s deficiencies. Ukraine’s deficiencies are Taiwan’s deficiencies.
40:49 - 41:00 Middleman: Taiwan’s will only be worse because Taiwan hasn't fought a war. Most Taiwanese people aren't even prepared to fight.
41:01 - 41:06 Middleman: Oh, right. Those three videos you did on "How to Attack Taiwan"—the higher-ups actually had a very high opinion of them.
41:07 - 41:17 Blogger: Thanks, thanks. Without even knowing it, I’ve become an "Internal Reference." (Laughs)
41:18 - 41:31 Blogger: Let me ask you one last question. About yourself… are you free to go abroad whenever you want? Or what?
41:32 - 41:45 Middleman: I can leave anytime. Believe me.
41:46 - 41:59 Blogger: But if you’re doing this kind of business, you must have to travel abroad a lot, right? Assuming this gets started.
42:00 - 42:15 Middleman: Right. But for me, I only care about the money. I made it very clear to them: you give me the money, and I’ll give you a quality product.
42:16 - 42:25 Middleman: Where I go is none of your business. Your military intelligence, your political intelligence—I don't care. Don't tell me.
42:26 - 42:32 Middleman: Because ultimately, I’m going back to Philly to live a quiet life with my wife and son.
42:33 - 42:43 Middleman: I’m just taking the money. It’s like… you often quote that movie Munich.
42:44 - 42:52 Middleman: In that movie, isn't there a French intelligence family? Whoever pays, they do the work. That’s it.
42:53 - 43:10 Blogger: Is your financial situation better than before? You said you were in debt. Do you have a lot of money now?
43:11 - 43:20 Middleman: I’ve paid off the debts. But after paying them off… I’m basically back to square one.
43:21 - 43:30 Blogger: So it all went to debt? Right. No wonder they picked you.
43:31 - 43:43 Middleman: Mm-hmm. They directly quoted a line from the "Jinyiwei" (Imperial Secret Police). I said, "Boss, I’ve been out of the Organization for years, why did you think of me now?"
43:44 - 44:00 Blogger: Your boss really doesn't hold back. If you’re a "piece of mud," you won’t get far.
44:01 - 44:17 Blogger: Wait, I remember before you weren't in the military system. You were more linked with the Propaganda Department. So how…
44:18 - 44:31 Middleman: No. My very first job was with the Beijing Public Security Bureau. The Intelligence Reconnaissance and Public Opinion Office.
44:32 - 44:45 Blogger: I see. I’m hearing this for the first time.
44:46 - 44:59 Middleman: Yeah, that’s what I used to do.
45:00 - 45:15 Middleman: That’s why I had to call you. And another thing—don’t leave a paper trail. That’s better for all of us. If you agree, and there’s a paper trail, it’s bad for you too. Spying… but how should I say it?
45:22 - 45:33 Blogger: Look… I asked if you could move freely. This thing requires a lot of traveling.
45:34 - 45:40 Blogger: A face-to-face meeting might have a higher success rate. Especially for other, even bigger bloggers.
45:41 - 45:51 Middleman: Let me tell you, Xiao Xu. I don’t want to make this business too big. I’ll just handle three to five bloggers.
45:52 - 46:00 Middleman: See, I found three in Philly, two in Italy, and two in Japan.
46:01 - 46:11 Blogger: Philly? Are there even any bloggers there? Who?
46:12 - 46:25 Middleman: There are a few. They do cars.
46:26 - 46:31 Blogger: Japan. Who else is in Japan?
46:32 - 46:45 Middleman: I can’t tell you that.
46:46 - 47:00 Blogger: You’re quite cautious. You already said it wasn't Wang Zhian. So I don't know.
47:01 - 47:11 Middleman: You probably don’t know the Japanese bloggers anyway, because they aren’t in this circle.
47:01 - 47:11 Blogger: You’ve built quite a diverse matrix of influencers.
47:12 - 47:20 Middleman: Yeah. Because the top required their backgrounds to be clean.
47:21 - 47:30 Blogger: I see. Let me think about it.
47:31 - 47:45 Middleman: Right now I have ten people in hand. But in the end, I’ll filter it down to three or four. Including Yuan Tengfei.
47:46 - 47:49 Blogger: Wait, three or four people sharing a 40,000 Euro monthly budget? To be honest…
47:50 - 48:02 Middleman: I’m quite satisfied. I’m very satisfied.
48:03 - 48:15 Blogger: You are satisfied. But the bloggers might not be.
48:16 - 48:26 Middleman: No, that’s just for one person.
48:27 - 48:30 Blogger: Oh, I misunderstood. Okay.
48:31 - 48:42 Middleman: To be strictly honest, that price is for you. Some are higher, some are lower.
48:43 - 48:54 Blogger: Of course. You have to go by the data. That’s normal.
48:55 - 49:10 Blogger: Per person? Holy sh*t. 40,000 in total? Big boss. I have to say, the Party is a bit stingy. 40,000 divided by ten would be really stingy.
49:11 - 49:25 Middleman: No. Think about it. That guy in Japan directly asked me for 800,000. Per month.
49:26 - 49:39 Blogger: He’s really opening his mouth wide. If it were Wang Zhian asking for 800,000, it might be understandable.
49:40 - 49:52 Middleman: No, not 800,000 [Yuan]. 8 million Yen. 8 million Yen a month.
49:53 - 49:56 Blogger: That’s quite a lot, actually.
49:57 - 50:11 Middleman: Yeah, it is. I calculated it—about 400,000 RMB. That’s a lot.
50:12 - 50:23 Middleman: So I told those people: it’s a bit expensive.
50:24 - 50:35 Blogger: You guys have to bargain, too? Right. Even the "Landlord" [Party] doesn't have much surplus grain left.
50:36 - 50:50 Middleman: No, the key is… these new people who were just transferred in are, after all, new. They want to spend money, but they also want to see results.
50:51 - 51:03 Middleman: You can't just spend a bunch of money and end up being called "useless" or a "stink-head" by Number One. That would be pointless.
51:04 - 51:16 Blogger: Okay, look: I have to write a script later. Let me think about this. And I’ll have to do some research behind the scenes, too.
51:17 - 51:25 Blogger: About the feasibility. You aren’t denying that as long as it doesn't violate my conscience, I could participate, right?
51:26 - 51:40 Blogger: Honestly, I’m mostly interested in the "form" of it. What form it takes. The way the Party-State works. (Laughs) After all, I’ve never dealt with them before.
51:41 - 51:53 Middleman: Hey, let me tell you: you think the Organization doesn't know you’re close with Teacher Li? Of course they know.
51:54 - 52:03 Blogger: Right. That’s why it’s strange. I’m so close with Teacher Li, but you still…
52:04 - 52:13 Middleman: Listen to me. The Organization knows the difference between you and Teacher Li.
52:14 - 52:23 Middleman: But there’s one thing they can’t say themselves, because it’s not "respectable."
52:24 - 52:33 Middleman: It’s not respectable, but I understand what they mean. I suspect the Organization wants me to pass a message to you.
52:34 - 52:43 Middleman: If the day ever comes where they have to "deal with" Teacher Li, and the "note" [threat/summons] arrives at your house… you can just say: "We’re all comrades here!" (Laughs)
52:44 - 52:53 Blogger: I thought you meant they’d send the note to me so I’d be the one to deal with him!
52:54 - 53:03 Middleman: No. Let me tell you: having the "notes" [police] harass your family back home… you said the police have harassed your family before, right?
53:04 - 53:13 Middleman: When the time comes, right? "We’re all comrades." That way, at least your parents won’t have to live in fear. Don't you think?
53:14 - 53:23 Blogger: That… is an interesting perspective.
53:24 - 53:33 Middleman: Hey, I want to be clear: this isn't a threat. I’m not using your parents as leverage. I’m just saying you clearly aren't the one in charge of that area.
53:34 - 53:44 Blogger: I know. I can hear that. I just think… well, that counts as a benefit, too.
53:45 - 53:54 Blogger: Right, right. Like "I am in you, and you are in me."
53:55 - 54:03 Middleman: Exactly. We don’t want the police showing up at the door and scaring your parents to death again. That’s pointless.
54:04 - 54:13 Blogger: But… are they planning to "deal with" him recently? I don’t understand that phrase.
54:14 - 54:23 Blogger: Are they going after Teacher Li soon? Is that why you contacted me?
54:24 - 54:33 Middleman: No, nothing like that. It has nothing to do with Teacher Li. It’s only because you asked why we didn’t look for him.
54:34 - 54:43 Middleman: I said it’s because he’s already been "named." He’s already on the list.
54:44 - 54:53 Blogger: Okay. I’ll digest this. This is a lot of information.
54:54 - 55:03 Middleman: That’s why I had to call you. And another thing… when we call… we can joke around…
55:04 - 55:13 Middleman: But secrets are secrets. There’s discipline involved.
55:14 - 55:23 Blogger: I haven’t even joined you yet and you’re talking about "discipline."
55:24 - 55:33 Middleman: No, I mean I trust you. For the sake of our years of friendship—given that I haven’t screwed you over—don’t screw me over, okay?
55:34 - 55:43 Blogger: No problem. Okay, hanging up. Bye.
55:44 - 55:53 Blogger: Later, if there's something new I want to know, I'll tell you.
55:54 - 56:03 Middleman: Don’t ask too much. Before asking too much, you should do one or two episodes. Just try it out.
56:04 - 56:13 Middleman: You take the money, but you aren’t "working" for the Organization yet. That way, your background stays clean. You get me?
56:14 - 56:23 Blogger: Right. Even if we’re going to move forward, I need to know some… well, let’s use an analogy.
56:24 - 56:33 Blogger: Lately I’ve been taking ads for things like Surfshark. I do them often.
56:34 - 56:43 Blogger: It’s a formal commercial contract. We sign the contract, then you pay.
56:44 - 56:53 Blogger: 20 days after the program is released, the payment must be made. And the ad length is specified.
56:54 - 57:03 Blogger: Everything has rules. I’m talking about those kinds of things, right?
57:04 - 57:09 Blogger: If I want to do this, I need to know those details from you, right?
57:10 - 57:15 Middleman: That can only come from me. The Organization won’t sign anything on paper with you. I know.
57:16 - 57:21 Middleman: But you have a verbal agreement. The guy I’m dealing with said it would be paid in two installments: one in the middle of the month, one at the end. That’s all he said.
58:00 - 58:10 Blogger: Got it, got it. Let’s leave it at that for now. I’ll digest this.
58:10 - 58:20 Middleman: Okay. Bye. Bye. Take care